AMNA NAWAZ: And joining me now from Hermosa Beach,# California, for an exclusive interview is Richard## Grenell.

He's president of the newly renamed# Trump-Kennedy Center.

Last February, he was named## interim president by the board that was appointed# by President Trump.

Grenell also served in Trump's## first term, including as ambassador to Germany# and acting director of national intelligence.

Ambassador Grenell, welcome to the# "News Hour."

Thanks for joining us.

RICHARD GRENELL, President, Kennedy# Center: Thank you for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: I want to begin by just giving you#.. there from Doug Varone, from others# in the piece reported by Jeff Brown,## a number of artists who chose to cancel or# pull out of performances, citing both the## president's takeover of the board and also the# renaming of the center.

What's your response?

RICHARD GRENELL: Well, first of all, I would note# that, in the entire package and in the questions,## there wasn't a single question about# the finances of what's going on.

And I have noticed at PBS, for instance,# you all haven't covered any of the finances## in terms of the situation that the# Kennedy Center has found itself.

The## Trump-Kennedy Center is in a very different# position than the previous center was.

And I would say that we have a# phenomenal situation financially## with the current Trump-Kennedy Center,# because President Trump is a phenomenal## fund-raiser.

And what we have been able# to do is look at ticket sales, donors,## as well as corporate sponsors, and come up with# a holistic approach to how you look at the arts.

When I arrived at the Kennedy# Center, the then-Kennedy Center,## we were paying staff with debt reserves.

Now, I# understand that there's a lot of reporters who## don't understand finance and who don't understand# what paying for staff with debt reserves mean.

But it seems to me that reporters who# are interested in the full story should## look at the full story of what's been# happening in the arts.

I don't quote## The New York Times that often, but just# about two months ago, The New York Times## did a front-page story saying that Broadway# was dying, ticket sales were in the tank.

This is a phenomenon that's# been going on for decades.## Arts centers are struggling.

And the only way that# you can go forward and have an arts institution## that's financially secure is to look at the# holistic aspect.

At the Trump-Kennedy Center,## we have 19 unions.

It's incredibly# expensive to go and put on performances.

We cannot have unpopular programming that doesn't# pay the bills.

What I said when we came -- and,## by the way, I didn't cancel a single show at# all at the now Trump-Kennedy Center.

I simply... (CROSSTALK) AMNA NAWAZ: Well.. RICHARD GRENELL: When you look at ticket sales# -- when you look at ticket s.. at donors and you look at corporate sponsors, you# have to come up with revenue-neutral programming.

We live in a world where you have to think# about finances.

We don't have unlimited funds.

AMNA NAWAZ: I appreciate that response.# And I want to ask you more about both that,## the programming and the finances, because,# as you have noted, there's been a lot of## reporting around the ticket sales.

There have# been specific ticket sales windows that were## reported on The Washington Post that, at# one point, the ticket sales in September## and October were at a 43 percent unsold rate,# as compared to just 7 percent the year before.

RICHARD GRENELL: Not true.

AMNA NAWAZ: That's n.. RICHARD GRENELL: It's not true.

AMNA NAWAZ: OK, .. RICHARD GRENELL: So, here is... AMNA NAWAZ: If I.. a different revenue model, is what I'm hearing.

So# are ticket sales down?

Is that confirmed or not?

RICHARD GRENELL: Well, first of all, let me just# say this.

I find it to be outrageous that PBS is## not reporting on the phenomenon that arts# institutions have been having for decades.

Now, I do note... AMNA NAWAZ: Ambassador, I will say,## we have expansive arts programming#.. (CROSSTALK) RICHARD GRENELL: That's not what I said.# Yo.. but you don't consider the finances.

But let me just note one thing.

The previous# chairman of the now Trump-Kennedy Center is## David Rubenstein, and I understand# that he's given you millions and## that the room that you're sitting in is# named after David Rubenstein.

So I don't## begrudge you that you can't go after# a big donor and say that his financial## management of the then-Kennedy Center was# something to look at.

You can't touch that.

I get that, because he's a very big donor.

AMNA NAWAZ: Ambassador Grenell, let# me make clear this has nothing to d.. with any of our donors or the fact that the studio# is named for David Rubenstein.

Please con.. (CROSSTALK) RICHARD GRENELL:.. When you -- when I arrived# at the then-Kennedy Center,## we had no money in the bank, and we# -- again, we were paying staff with## debt reserves.

That's immoral.

You cannot run an# institutional.

Let me give you one more example;## 94 people were employed in the development# department, which is how you raise money.

Since President Trump has arrived at the now# Trump-Kennedy Center, we have raised more than## $130 million, blowing away all other fund-raising,# and that's corporate donors who are coming back## because they trust the programming.

We have got# the Stuttgart Ballet and the Vienna Philharmonic.

We -- I will give you -- the individual that# you just interviewed, I will give you that we## cannot do programming that loses money.

He# was losing money.

The $40,000 that he was## talking about was what we were paying him, and# he didn't have ticket sales that were proper.

Again, though, I didn't cancel# him because he was scheduled by## the previous regime, who had a different criteria.

AMNA NAWAZ: Understood.

RICHARD GRENELL: My criter.. have arts institutions that lose# money because you have programming## that is woke or not popular.

We need popular# programming to sustain arts institutions.

AMNA NAWAZ: Ambassador, your# team has -- I understand.

And your team has made it .. in this Trump-Kennedy Center.

You pointed out# -- and your team, rather, in a note to us... RICHARD GRENELL: We have a# lot of artists that want to... AMNA NAWAZ: Miranda Lambert, Brooks & Dunn,.. For those artists who are pulling out# themselves, citing the renaming of the center,## citing the fact that the president took# over the board and made himself chairman,## are you saying that all of those performances# were losing money for the Kennedy Center?

RICHARD GRENELL: No.

I don't# really understand that question.

What I'm saying is, we have changed the# programming so that, with ticket sales,## you have to combine donors and corporate# sponsors.

In today's world, let me just## educate you about arts institutions.

No art# institution is able to pay for programming## with ticket sales alone.

That's not how the# future is going to be for arts institutions.

It's extremely expensive.

You need to have donors# in corporate America who come forward and say,## we like this programming, we# want to write a big check,## and we want to support it.

Again, we have# 19 unions at the Trump-Kennedy Center,## and it is incredibly difficult to pay for# any programming with just ticket sales alone.

AMNA NAWAZ: The fact that... RICHARD GRENELL: So all I'm telling you is that we are in great financial shape# since President Trump came.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

RICHARD GRENELL:.. AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

RICHARD GRENELL:.. AMNA NAWAZ: You have made that point, sir.

RICHARD GRENELL: And we're# going to blow the fund-raising## records off the doors.

We're just# raising more than we ever have.

AMNA NAWAZ: The fact that the viewerships were the# Kennedy Cent.. some 35 percent in terms of viewership# -- this was the Honors that President## Trump himself said he handpicked most# of the honorees.

He hosted himself.

Does that -- as a steward of this institution,## does all of this, the backlash, the# headlines about artists pulling out,## the fact that so few people paid attention# to the Honors, does that worry you?

RICHARD GRENELL: Well, let me# challenge you on that again,## the biased fact that you just# thought that you were giving.

If you go to CBS, they will tell you that the# CBS Trump-Kennedy Center Honors this year tied## for number one in its demographic.

I looked# at the numbers for PBS' "News Hour" last year.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is separate from the fact# that the numbers dropped from last year,## which is what I asked in my question, sir.

(CROSSTALK) RICHARD GRENELL: No, no, this is -- no, this is what I'm trying to say to# you, if you will understand this.

TV viewership, year after year, is dramatically# going down.

Your programming has lost a ton of## viewers.

CBS, ABC, NBC every year are losing# viewers.

More people are going online.

So all I## can tell you is, is that this year, CBS said that# the Honors tied for number one in the demographic.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, the drop in viewership# does not bother you, is what I'm hearing.

(CROSSTALK) RICHARD GRENELL: Well, what I'm saying# is, is, in the context, we won, we tied,## and we were the most popular for that# night.

That was on a Wednesday night.

What you're trying to compare is# apples and oranges to a Sunday night,## which is different, which was last# year, when there were a lot more## viewers on television.

In case you don't# realize, television is a dying medium,## and every single year, if you look at the# numbers, viewers are dropping dramatically.

I have got nephews and nieces who won't even# watch television because they're just doing## things on their phone.

So the digital content is# different, and you didn't quote that, because,## digitally, President Trump, the Trump-Kennedy# Center, and the Kennedy Center Honors this year,## which is now the Trump-Kennedy# Center honors, did phenomenally well.

AMNA NAWAZ: How did they do# online?

Can you give us a number?

RICHARD GRENELL: Well, I would just refer# you to CBS.

Don't take my numbers.

CBS is## saying that it was tenfold compared to what# any other year that they compared it to.

So, digitally, it really took off.

AMNA NAWAZ: Ambassador Grenell, there# is so much to talk about here.

And,## as I mentioned, we do cover the# arts quite a bit.

So I will just## say we do welcome you back any time# as we continue our coverage of this.

But while I have you, I do want to ask you# about another part of your previous portfolio,## and that was related to Venezuela.

I# know that you did work on the Venezuela## file earlier in the year for President# Trump.

You have met with Nicolas Maduro.

Holistically, when you look at the# actions of this U.S.

government,## what do you think the goal of the policy# is?

Is it to remove Maduro from power?

RICHARD GRENELL: Well, look, I work# for President Trump, and on this issue,## I'm going to give him maximum flexibility, and# I'm not going to say anything about the policy.

AMNA NAWAZ: OK.

Ambassador Ric G.. We thank you for joining us.

Please# do come back and join us again soon.

RICHARD GRENELL: I definitely# will.

Thanks for having me.